Comments on: Fixed-pitch and Adjustable-pitch Instruments http://kurticus.com/fixed-pitch-and-adjustable-pitch-instruments Just another WordPress weblog Tue, 03 Aug 2010 05:56:27 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1 By: Kurticus http://kurticus.com/fixed-pitch-and-adjustable-pitch-instruments/comment-page-1#comment-248 Kurticus Thu, 31 Dec 2009 04:37:34 +0000 http://kurticus.com/?p=634#comment-248 All valid points. Thanks for sharing! All valid points. Thanks for sharing!

]]> By: Igor Iachimciuc http://kurticus.com/fixed-pitch-and-adjustable-pitch-instruments/comment-page-1#comment-247 Igor Iachimciuc Wed, 30 Dec 2009 07:07:02 +0000 http://kurticus.com/?p=634#comment-247 It is very interesting subject. Thanks for posting it. Nobody can deny that in majority of cases the piano is interpreted as an accompaniment instrument. But first, other non-fixed pitch instruments may be similarly interpreted. Have you listen to the early sonatas for violin and piano by Mozart? (Actually the real titles are: The sonatas for the PIANO and violin). In these compositions the violin, rather than the piano, is the accompaniment. Second, I think your categorization of likeness of certain combinations of instruments doesn't have to do with the artistic value of music. I am sure that one can write beautiful music for any combination of instruments through the avoidance of the traditional functional differentiation of these instruments. It is very interesting subject. Thanks for posting it. Nobody can deny that in majority of cases the piano is interpreted as an accompaniment instrument. But first, other non-fixed pitch instruments may be similarly interpreted. Have you listen to the early sonatas for violin and piano by Mozart? (Actually the real titles are: The sonatas for the PIANO and violin). In these compositions the violin, rather than the piano, is the accompaniment.
Second, I think your categorization of likeness of certain combinations of instruments doesn’t have to do with the artistic value of music. I am sure that one can write beautiful music for any combination of instruments through the avoidance of the traditional functional differentiation of these instruments.

]]> By: Vassili http://kurticus.com/fixed-pitch-and-adjustable-pitch-instruments/comment-page-1#comment-244 Vassili Sun, 20 Dec 2009 23:39:11 +0000 http://kurticus.com/?p=634#comment-244 I'll just say that in my Synesthetic experience, I see different shades of color. In the case that a piano is performing with a trumpet or cello, I'll see whatever colors there may be, but because of the tuning, one color might be a strong or bold shade while the other might be a pale shade. I don't know what it's worth, but I find it interesting and just another way to experience harmony. Again, that's just for me and every person who has Synesthesia experiences things differently. I’ll just say that in my Synesthetic experience, I see different shades of color. In the case that a piano is performing with a trumpet or cello, I’ll see whatever colors there may be, but because of the tuning, one color might be a strong or bold shade while the other might be a pale shade. I don’t know what it’s worth, but I find it interesting and just another way to experience harmony. Again, that’s just for me and every person who has Synesthesia experiences things differently.

]]> By: Kurticus http://kurticus.com/fixed-pitch-and-adjustable-pitch-instruments/comment-page-1#comment-243 Kurticus Sun, 20 Dec 2009 21:10:18 +0000 http://kurticus.com/?p=634#comment-243 Jeremy: Please see my response to Evan regarding instrument tendencies. Also, it seems you have supported my point by saying that choirs intuitively adjust their pitch to be in tune according to the harmony, so why would that not be expected of a flute player? Well, it is, and good ensembles know this, which is why I have little issue with good ensembles that are aware of harmonic shifts within their rep and place pitches accordingly. If a melodic line is projecting a certain harmony, then it is also important that each pitch be placed accordingly on a melodic level. If the harmonies switch every chord, however, the factor that determines pitch placement is purely harmonic, and not melodic. As far as my ear goes, I am aware when I hear a minor seventh that has not been placed low enough in a dominant, or a minor third that has not been raised to accommodate harmonic context. Aren't you? The reason an orchestral setting does not bother me is because they are adjusting their pitches, just like the sustained voice adjusting the pitch to fit within the chord. For the most part, it happens automatically with trained musicians. My issue with fixed-pitch instruments are not geared towards the performer, but the instrument, which is completely incapable of doing such and must rely on the ear to retroactively adjust the pitches accordingly. I view this as an issue in which I have no solution. It bothers me, and maybe I'm the only one, but I strongly feel there is a direction that can be taken to improve this dilemma. Jeremy:

Please see my response to Evan regarding instrument tendencies. Also, it seems you have supported my point by saying that choirs intuitively adjust their pitch to be in tune according to the harmony, so why would that not be expected of a flute player? Well, it is, and good ensembles know this, which is why I have little issue with good ensembles that are aware of harmonic shifts within their rep and place pitches accordingly. If a melodic line is projecting a certain harmony, then it is also important that each pitch be placed accordingly on a melodic level. If the harmonies switch every chord, however, the factor that determines pitch placement is purely harmonic, and not melodic.

As far as my ear goes, I am aware when I hear a minor seventh that has not been placed low enough in a dominant, or a minor third that has not been raised to accommodate harmonic context. Aren’t you? The reason an orchestral setting does not bother me is because they are adjusting their pitches, just like the sustained voice adjusting the pitch to fit within the chord. For the most part, it happens automatically with trained musicians. My issue with fixed-pitch instruments are not geared towards the performer, but the instrument, which is completely incapable of doing such and must rely on the ear to retroactively adjust the pitches accordingly. I view this as an issue in which I have no solution. It bothers me, and maybe I’m the only one, but I strongly feel there is a direction that can be taken to improve this dilemma.

]]> By: Kurticus http://kurticus.com/fixed-pitch-and-adjustable-pitch-instruments/comment-page-1#comment-242 Kurticus Sun, 20 Dec 2009 20:48:20 +0000 http://kurticus.com/?p=634#comment-242 To respond to a few of your statements: 1. Regardless of why the role exists, I find that 9 times out of 10 the music is not intended to be in a solo/accompaniment setting. When you consider dialogue, which is rampant in music throughout as many time periods and genres as I can think of, the roles of each musician cannot be classified as soloist and accompanist. People are starting to realize this now and are I've noticed a healthy change in how newer works are being written and presented, as well as how older works are being reinterpreted. Finally, even though it might just be a surface level statement, please notice that your degree is now called "Collaborative Piano" and not "Accompaniment," which it had been called for years prior. 2. Hindemith's sonatas do not bother me, despite mostly being for solo instrument and piano. Because of this, I think his writing is brilliant, because he had figured out a way to deal with that nasty sound that comes from that class of tuning systems. His compositional style and the technique required to perform either part is a matter of opinion, and should be discussed later. 3. The intonation issues that arise from adjustable-pitch instruments are based on the acoustics of each instrument, not the nature of harmony. For example, the written E5 on a B-flat clarinet is going to be quite sharp because the wholes of the instrument we drilled to tune A4 below it. That's not because of the partials of the harmonic series, it is because of an acoustical flaw built into the instrument. If nothing else, the performer has to work against this artificial obstacle to achieve true harmony. These do need to be overcome to adhere to the natural tendencies of harmony so that instruments can play on equal ground, but this equal ground is still nowhere near equal temperament. 4. My work with singers is not as expansive as yours, no. I have, however, heard my share of singers sustain pitches over a harmony, then the harmony changes, requiring a subtle readjustment of the sustained pitch, and most singers are unrelenting in holding that same pitch as it would be heard from the piano and not where it should sit in the harmony. I have also witnessed choirs that, while not consisting of trained singers, contain musicians with good ears. In these settings, yes, the tendency is to match pitch, but the urge to place the pitch correctly within the harmony is overwhelming, which is why you so often hear choirs singing in clusters, all singing the correct note, but each placed in a different position based on where the individual thinks the harmony is in tune. That opens a new discussion on ear training and how one perceives pitch and intonation which I do not want to get into right now. Your thoughts are interesting, but they may be more provoking if you do not initially assume I have no idea what I am talking about. To respond to a few of your statements:

1. Regardless of why the role exists, I find that 9 times out of 10 the music is not intended to be in a solo/accompaniment setting. When you consider dialogue, which is rampant in music throughout as many time periods and genres as I can think of, the roles of each musician cannot be classified as soloist and accompanist. People are starting to realize this now and are I’ve noticed a healthy change in how newer works are being written and presented, as well as how older works are being reinterpreted. Finally, even though it might just be a surface level statement, please notice that your degree is now called “Collaborative Piano” and not “Accompaniment,” which it had been called for years prior.

2. Hindemith’s sonatas do not bother me, despite mostly being for solo instrument and piano. Because of this, I think his writing is brilliant, because he had figured out a way to deal with that nasty sound that comes from that class of tuning systems. His compositional style and the technique required to perform either part is a matter of opinion, and should be discussed later.

3. The intonation issues that arise from adjustable-pitch instruments are based on the acoustics of each instrument, not the nature of harmony. For example, the written E5 on a B-flat clarinet is going to be quite sharp because the wholes of the instrument we drilled to tune A4 below it. That’s not because of the partials of the harmonic series, it is because of an acoustical flaw built into the instrument. If nothing else, the performer has to work against this artificial obstacle to achieve true harmony. These do need to be overcome to adhere to the natural tendencies of harmony so that instruments can play on equal ground, but this equal ground is still nowhere near equal temperament.

4. My work with singers is not as expansive as yours, no. I have, however, heard my share of singers sustain pitches over a harmony, then the harmony changes, requiring a subtle readjustment of the sustained pitch, and most singers are unrelenting in holding that same pitch as it would be heard from the piano and not where it should sit in the harmony. I have also witnessed choirs that, while not consisting of trained singers, contain musicians with good ears. In these settings, yes, the tendency is to match pitch, but the urge to place the pitch correctly within the harmony is overwhelming, which is why you so often hear choirs singing in clusters, all singing the correct note, but each placed in a different position based on where the individual thinks the harmony is in tune. That opens a new discussion on ear training and how one perceives pitch and intonation which I do not want to get into right now.

Your thoughts are interesting, but they may be more provoking if you do not initially assume I have no idea what I am talking about.

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